Catey Gans Kyrö:  How did your work in neuroarchitecture and neurodesign begin?   

Isabelle Sjövall:  I've always been fascinated by how the built environment impacts humans psychologically and physiologically. After two decades in property development and design, I realized neuroscience was largely absent from the conversation, even though architecture impacts millions every day. I joined University College London to bridge brain science, architecture, and engineering and began translating research into practice. I wanted to know how we can use the built environment to live better lives. And I wanted one foot in industry and one in academia… to make sure that the research is applied into the real world. 

Kyrö:  Why did RISE make neurodesign a priority? 

Sjövall:  Sweden has a strong tradition of promoting health and well-being, and the government launched a mission called 'Designed Living Environments for Health and Well-being.' RISE saw the potential for real impact, and we began working across sectors—private developers, municipalities, schools, hospitals—to integrate neuroscience into design. We work now very bilaterally and we have had great support from the embassies in both Sweden and the UK. 

Kyrö:  You're doing a great job getting the message out between industry and academia. How well has that information been received, such as with the public, or architects and designers?  

Sjövall:  I think it's a lot about spreading knowledge and doing that in different ways. I've written two books and books usually resonate well with lay language and a wider public. This knowledge should be for everyone.     

I think everything is interconnected. However, from a research perspective it hasn't been explored much because it's difficult to do so. In science you don't want more than one variable, and then you measure that one and look at the outcomes. Whereas in the built environment we have sound, light, colors, shapes and forms - there are so many variables that we are exposed to and together that will be the brain's interpretation of that environment. It's fascinating, but difficult. I think we'll need to have more collaborations, especially with architects, urban planners and policy makers. It will need to be a joint venture.  
 

“The more people are informed, the stronger the demand for healthier design will become.”   
 

Sander Schuur:  Could you share what you do on a daily basis, to help people that might not know about neurodesign and neuroarchitecture?   

Sjövall:  I do many things, but usually it's meeting with clients, which could be large property companies, state owned companies, authorities, or schools, that want to improve the built environment. Some people want to build the things that neuroarchitecture and neurodesign stand for: health, performance, and well-being.  We discuss how to optimize the built environment according to science.  

I also deliver on projects - to translate the science into practical solutions, which is not always easy. And I do pure research, like data collection, which could be analyzing data sets, giving talks, or writing articles about findings.  

Kyrö:  Where does the money typically come from to pay for neurodesign?  

Sjövall:  Usually it's connected to the project budget and then we see how we can deliver the best we can within that project. It's very much a collaboration.  

 Schuur:  What phases do you come in on a project? Is it often working with the developer who has a plot of land but doesn't know how to include neurodesign? Or is it an architect or an existing building owner?  

Sjövall:  It's all of that. Last week I spoke to a very large property developer. They have land and demands from the municipality about how they should develop it and make it the best.  

And sometimes people come to us because a building did not have the effect they wanted. They ask us how they can achieve what they are they looking for based on the latest neuroscience. I think it’s the best when you solve problems together.  

Kyrö:  Do you think it's feasible in the future to have a neuroscience representative on project teams, from the beginning through the end of a project? 

Sjövall:  Yes, however we don't have that many neuroscientists in the world. I imagine that's something that's going to be sought after in these type of projects.  Another solution would be for companies to hire a brain researcher or neuroscientist for a specific project, because it's such a specialized area that I don't think all companies can hire their own.  

It's important to respect the role of the architect and designer because they have vast knowledge. This outside expertise would be complementary and bring an additional perspective to the work.  

Schuur:  Will neuroscience become part of the guidelines for building design? And if so, will architects thinks, if I just tick those boxes then my project will be supporting health and well-being? Should we support standardizing design in this regard?  

 Sjövall:  We've just developed the world's first Neurodesign and Neuroarchitecture Index. If I can dream big, this would become a standard and accessible. I think that's a bit further on, but pilots have started and it's looking promising.  Speaking for the present, you can always bring in the science to inform conscious choices.   

Schuur:  Do you think a city can put demands on a building to be built on public land to meet a certain level of health and well-being? Do you see that cities are interested in this?  

 Sjövall:  I think they're very interested. I also think they need to change the rules - to not be only about money, and how big a building can be built on a piece of land. We need to flip the budget to account for the benefits of better choices now so it will cost less later. Our systems-thinking needs to be updated, and that should be translated into better regulation.  

Again, I do think cities are very interested in how to make this work. We are doing projects in London now with the transformation of Oxford Street. It's a huge project with retail offices, public spaces and green infrastructure. We're using the Neurodesign Index there. We're indexing the different parts of the city and inside of buildings to understand and measure different outcomes. For example, a hospital with a higher index equates to quicker recovery, less medication, maybe less sick leave among the staff.  

It's very important to always connect the purpose of a space or place with the interventions that you do. To do that, we must be able to measure it.  
 

“I think [cities] need to change the rules - to not be only about money, and how big a building can be built on a piece of land. We need to flip the budget to account for the benefits of better choices now so it will cost less later.”   
 

Kyrö:  Tell me more about the measuring process. It's quite difficult to get post occupancy evaluations, or to spend the time surveying and observing people. How often do you get to measure versus just provide?  

Sjövall:  It depends on what's actually feasible in a project. It's important to be flexible.  We can look at drawings, a site or a building. Then we identify improvements and offer guidelines or recommendations based on the science. That said, I think it's more interesting when companies are brave enough to measure outcomes. This could be an analysis of the space now and then make prediction models with AI. We collect data and then profile that with profiles of the people in the space.  

For example, we know that humans are different in terms of how we process sensory information. We control for that by creating profiles from the data, and with that data we create predictions. As we build out the data in the neuro-index we will be able to go into a space and make better and better predictions. This will help identify where best to put the money in the design process.  

Kyrö:  Do you find that people who use the spaces notice the difference? How do architects experience the space versus community members?   

Sjövall:  I think it's different because architects and designers are trained to interpret the environment, they have a different lens.  

We try to quantify and measure, but also to ask questions to get qualitative data - asking people how they feel, what they think. And then you code the language.  Peoples’ views are colored by where they come from, for example. If you enter a space that reminds you of something from your childhood, that’s your experience alone. Our cognition, our memories and our backgrounds are very embedded in our experiences.  It’s fascinating.  

 
“Our cognition, our memories and our backgrounds are very embedded in our experiences. It’s fascinating.” 
 

Schuur:  Regarding the public, let's say a building that people pass every day has a massive impact on their lives - but do they know it? How aware are people of the effect of the built environment on their health and well-being?   

Sjövall:  It depends somewhat on your personality, but a lot of these processes are unconscious. There's a lot of light and noise when you're in a city, and your brain will pick up all the signals. Chronic overstimulation, especially in urban environments, is linked to higher mental health risks. The more people understand this, the more they will demand healthier environments. There are many elements that we need to understand better to be able to map what is good and what is too much for people. 

 Schuur:  We say nature is calming, but a tree for example can be quite complex. If you think about calming architecture, it's minimalistic, like Scandinavian design tends to be minimalistic. That seems contradictory in my world, because really boring cities feel less healthy than something that inspires or stimulates the senses. 

Sjövall:  It's difficult for the brain if we have too many stimuli in an environment because it needs to keep track of everything; detecting threats, seeking food, etc. This is embedded in our DNA.  Alternatively, if it's too minimalistic it could feel like deprivation. And deprivation is stressful because that would mean, on the Savannah, that you wouldn't have enough shelter, food or water. I think there's an enjoyable mix, a balance, where you don't have too much or too little.  

Kyrö:  We all come to things with our different experiences, and we also consume information differently. How do you design for variations in perception or preference? For example, some people really like green, and we know that scientifically green is a calming color because of the connection to nature. But other people really don't like it.   

 Sjövall:  We are different, but we are also very much alike. I would seek universal components, like daylight, that most people like. And then if you want something else, you can have it in your home or somewhere you can personally express yourself more. 

I think the problem with many environments today is that there’s too much to process overtime.  

Schuur:  Thinking about the three audiences for our initiative, architects tend to understand and agree that design impacts environmental health equity. Decision makers are often surprised by the magnitude of impact design can have on the people who use a space. The general public thinks about this the least but recognizes a direct impact when they do think about it.  

We hope sharing this information can create more market demand for better design, because it produces greater well-being. We tend to focus most on the public or community advocates. How can we speak a common language to this audience and get out of the academic zone?  

Sjövall:  Share the knowledge as much as you can across different channels. Decision makers and policy makers, they get this if you talk to them about money: how they cannot afford to lose money on a project that doesn’t deliver good results, or how they can support public health with their project. Connect it to something that's important to them.  

Different audiences need ways of engaging in this conversation that are familiar to them. It shouldn't be tricky to learn science, even if it's neuroscience. It should be presented in digestible language.   

 Schuur:  Why do you think there is increased interest in this conversation now? Why are designers, architects, city officials moving towards more health-centered design? 

 Sjövall: I remember when I started in this field 15 years ago. It was like I was from outer space, talking about neuroscience and design and architecture. It was not well received back then.   

Now cities and societies are facing many challenges. We recognize that we haven't done research on the built environment, and yet we have huge exposure to these environments. At the same time, new technology and advancements in neuroscience have developed very rapidly in recent years, providing a body of knowledge that we didn't have before.   

I think this has created a tipping point. Now we can measure how different environments affect us. We can bring in mobile brain imaging technology in real environments.   

“We recognize that we haven't done research on the built environment, and yet we have huge exposure to these environments. At the same time, new technology and advancements in neuroscience have developed very rapidly in recent years, providing a body of knowledge that we didn't have before. I think this has created a tipping point.”   

Schuur:  If we are at a tipping point where health and neuroarchitecture connect, what will be the next step?  

Sjövall:  If we talk about benefiting societies, communities and public health, I would say understanding and using neuroarchitecture and neurodesign should become commonplace in all built environments.  

Schuur:  A key challenge is that quite often those who invest in a project are not the same people who gain the benefits at a later stage. A developer may just want to build and sell the property. How can we link neurodesign, well-being and economics?  

Sjövall:  It's very interconnected and I think neuroarchitecture, neurodesign is very much about human ecological and economic sustainability. They are very intertwined.   

It’s important to do the calculations for the client, and to have proof of concepts - what's going to happen if we don't do it this way, what are we going to lose? Having the architect or designer engage on the project in a more specialized role, such as helping develop the budget, would also help.  

Kyrö:  How do we help people to think beyond themselves and to the impact that they have on others?  

 Sjövall:  It's always useful to think about the purpose of a place or a space. Then you view your team members or colleagues as allies towards reaching that goal. It’s about sharing a vision of a higher purpose that you work towards together.  This approach would also help the economics of projects.  

Schuur: I’d like to bring the discussion back to the Pittsburgh Platform. We see ourselves as an advocacy movement for environmental health equity, functioning as an umbrella organization for many others working in this space. We're not doing the research ourselves, but we try to connect organizations and people like you. What might we help you with? Where do you see a role for us in supporting your work?  

Sjövall:  To use your platform to spread knowledge, to curate something that would resonate with decision-makers, architects and the public.  The more people are informed, the stronger the demand for healthier design will become.